Rebecca Zung: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist

In this dual episode of 'The Burn' and 'Negotiate Your Best Life', hosts Ben Newman and Rebecca Zung engage in an in-depth conversation exploring their respective fields of performance coaching and narcissism. Ben Newman relays his own challenging experiences growing up with a demanding father and losing his mother at a young age. He discusses how these experiences drove him to be better and have disciplined standards. Rebecca Zung provides psychological perspectives on narcissism, explaining how such individuals operate and how to protect oneself from their manipulative tactics. 

Connect with Rebecca: www.rebeccazung.com

00:00 Introduction and Personal Struggles
00:29 The Burn: A Unique Approach to Motivation
00:56 Special Episode: Interview with Rebecca Zung
02:29 Rebecca Zung's Introduction and Ben Newman's Background
04:31 Ben Newman's Personal Journey and Challenges
08:25 BNC Publishing: A Quick Introduction
08:57 Continuation of Ben Newman's Personal Journey
12:19 Spark Companies: A Strategic Partner Introduction
13:02 The Burn: A Deeper Dive
18:56 Understanding Narcissism and Its Impact
25:17 Ben Newman's Personal Reflections and Advice
29:24 The Power of Decision and Discipline
33:33 The Power of Motivation and Teaching
34:40 The Importance of Standards in Life
35:37 The Four P's of the Standard
36:08 The Problem of Winning
37:11 The Power of Planning and Performance
37:54 The Payoff and the Danger of Success Seduction
38:55 The Importance of Having a Future Context
39:35 Bringing Your Future to Today
40:48 The Power of Strategy in Winning
41:27 Dealing with Narcissists and High Conflict Personalities
45:25 Creating Leverage in Negotiations
49:56 The Power of Anticipation
56:57 The Importance of Mindset in Winning
01:02:01 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We talked about the difficulties that you've had. You use that to create the standard.

Speaker 2: 0:09

And so I had to get all the wounds in order to be able to find the strength, and so I don't think I would change any of them. Welcome back to another episode of the Burn. I am Ben Newman, and you know how we do this. Every single week, we're bringing you a story of an athlete, an entertainer, a celebrity, an author, somebody who's performing at the highest possible level, who is recognized. That why and purpose is not enough. There's an underlying burn that ignites your why and purpose and causes you to be disciplined on the days that you don't want to do it, and especially after you win. Today is a special episode. We have never done this before. My new friend, rebecca Zung she is a powerhouse, over 50 million views on YouTube. One of the best known experts on narcissism in the world today has an amazing new book called Slay the Bully that you have got to pick up.

Speaker 2: 1:22

We did something that I don't know of has ever been done in the history of podcast. You know a lot of podcasts. We do what are called podcast swaps. Rebecca would interview me for her show, I would interview her for the Burn, and then we would do that in the same day and there would be these separate episodes. She and I got so excited doing the recording of her episode, which was supposed to cut and then do the Burn, and we got so engaged in this interview and there's so much amazing back and forth that we decided in the middle of the taping for her show that we were going to call an audible, just like you would see in a football game when the quarterback comes up, sees that the defense knows the play and switches the play.

Speaker 2: 2:03

And we, in the middle of the episode, said we are just going to keep this going and make this a dual episode because we won't stop this momentum. So that's what you're going to get a dual episode of both of our shows. Here we go. Never before done on podcasts, never before done on the Burn. You'll see the audible live in the middle of the episode. Enjoy this special episode of the Burn with Rebecca Zung. Rebecca.

Speaker 1: 2:28

Zung, welcome to another episode of Negotiate your Best Life. I am so really excited today to introduce you to Ben Newman. He is a renowned speaker, entrepreneur, philanthropist, but he really what he does is he coaches some of the top performers, the top athletes, the top people on the planet. And when I say that I am not kidding, I mean some people say that, but they don't really. I mean he actually does, I mean he actually does, and I am really really excited to dive in with him today because he really motivates and really knows his stuff about how to get the best out of people, really get you to the top performance of yourself, and you will want to listen to this all the way to the end.

Speaker 1: 3:32

If you're feeling like you don't know where to start, you don't know. You're feeling like you want to give up, you're feeling like you don't know how to begin. As far as feeling motivated, this is the episode for you. So hang on to the edge of your seat, get your pen and paper out and get ready to really have real nuggets on what to do, to get off your butt and really get somewhere in your life, so that you know by the end of this episode you're going to know what to do to be inspired, be motivated and actually have a plan for your life. I'm so excited to welcome you, ben Newman.

Speaker 2: 4:19

Rebecca, thank you so much. Thank you for that amazing introduction and we have so many mutual friends. I had so much excitement, enthusiasm, to spend time with you and all your listeners, and so I'm ready to go.

Speaker 1: 4:30

Thank you, and I am really, really excited to talk to you because it's not like you had some kind of cushy life where you could go. You know, I had a nice life. It was really easy for me and I'm going to tell you how to win at your everyday life. But you know what? It was really easy for me, so I can give you advice, but I don't really know what it was like, right? I mean, you did not have an easy life.

Speaker 2: 5:05

No, I you know a lot of my mentors and coaches, and I definitely want to preface this because I am so far from being finished learning and identifying what my best is. I still have two coaches. I'm reading books every single day and many of my mentors call me what people refer to as an old soul. I had to grow up so fast and face so much challenge and adversity that it almost elevated me beyond my actual number of years on this planet and, you know, had me in enough therapist chairs that you could probably call me doctor. So it's a blessing that I have the opportunity to help others, but I'm still trying to become my very best myself, rebecca, yeah, so okay, your parents.

Speaker 1: 5:47

they divorced when you were how old?

Speaker 2: 5:50

Six months old.

Speaker 1: 5:51

Six months old. And then your mother.

Speaker 2: 5:54

She dies when you were 11 days before my eighth birthday, from a rare muscle disease that many people don't know much about.

Speaker 2: 6:02

It's called amyloidosis and she was diagnosed in 1983, 1986, 11 days before my eighth birthday.

Speaker 2: 6:10

She passed, and fast forward all the way to today. Our family is still raising money to fight to find the long term cure you can. Chemotherapy now allows people to live with amyloidosis, but there's still no cure for the disease all these years later. So you know, my mother was given two to four years to live, told she was only the second woman under 40 years old that had ever seen or heard of having the disease. But, rebecca, she had this passion for life that she instilled in me and you know she'd come to the dinner table every single day with an IV stand, when we had 24 hour nursing care in the house, to ask me how my day was at school. You know she taught me what it means to embrace every day, to put one foot in front of the other when you don't feel like doing it, and to make it more about somebody else and to serve than to make it about yourself, that my mother was an amazing woman and I still fight to keep her story going every day.

Speaker 1: 7:02

Wow, okay, yeah, I mean that's so tough, so you're raised by your father, basically.

Speaker 2: 7:12

And he, he moves back into the house and I made you a promise you could take this wherever you wanted to go, because I feel like there's so many ways that you can help me and I'm willing to do this with your audience. But my father moved back in and for the same reasons that my mother divorced my father were the reasons why I had challenges with him. Well, when that's your last living parent, you don't get to divorce your dad. So I had to live with those challenges that I had to live through that adversity and, rebecca, as I know, you're dealing with every single day with all the amazing work that you do.

Speaker 2: 7:43

I mean it was painful, it was hard. You know. I often say I wish my dad would have hit me because the bruises would have gone away, but some of the pain that mentally he's put me through. I've gotten much better and stronger through it and I was a 45 year old man, but there's still so many things that pain and haunt me to this day.

Speaker 1: 8:01

Did you have brothers and sisters?

Speaker 2: 8:03

I did. You know I have a, an older brother, and you know after my father's loss there's been strain and pain and you know it's just. Life is hard and I'm glad you're asking these questions because I think sometimes people think that it's all perfect. Or they see me on a sideline on TV, or they see me going to speak for Google and oh, everything's great, like no, it's not?

Speaker 3: 8:25

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Speaker 2: 8:57

I'm still working on me, I'm trying to be my best, but life is full of challenges and every time I'm faced with a challenge I feel like I find greater strength within me to realize not only how I can be a better father, how I could be a better husband, how I could be a better coach, but it makes us just better in our lives the more pain that we go through, and oftentimes it's a tough road, but I wouldn't change anything that I've been through.

Speaker 1: 9:22

I mean, I often say the very first negotiation that we have to do is with our own self in the morning, for our own self worth. What would you say to that?

Speaker 2: 9:32

I would say you are absolutely nailed it. I've had a show called the Burn, and I've been doing this for over 18 years, and you kind of joked about it earlier. There's so many people in this world that we live in that claim they do the kind of work that you do or that I do, and then you try to peel it back and you're like well, what exactly do they do? And so I've been doing this for over 18 years, and one of the things that I found consistent over high performers in business and in sports in that time is that why and purpose is actually not enough. They're very important, incredibly important, but there's actually this underlying burn that lies inside of you, and it's this burn that ignites your why and purpose. That then causes you to be disciplined on the days you don't want to do it, and especially after you win.

Speaker 2: 10:17

And so for me, that negotiation with myself starts with me taking out a pen, putting it to paper and writing down that burn every single day, and the moment that I connect to it and actually, when I put it to paper, it's about the third time I've connected to it, because my burn is the name of my alarm clock. It's reading my mother's name, janet Fishman Newman. When I read my mother's name and I connect to that and the opportunity to live one extra day that she never got. There's no hitting the snooze button, there's no getting back into those warm and cozy sheets. I'm going to choose to be the best that I can be, that one day, with the gift I've been given.

Speaker 1: 10:54

And what is it about having that extra day, that is that burn for you? Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2: 11:04

Yeah, so you know I mentioned that my mother passed 11 days before my eighth birthday. My mother passed at 38 years old. So here I am. My mother passed 11 days before my eighth birthday. That's all I had with. My mom was not even eight years, she was 38. I'm 45. That means there's seven extra years that I've been given that my mother never even had.

Speaker 2: 11:27

And when I think of that perspective, there's no wasting days for me. There's no making excuses. It doesn't mean that every day I wake up and I want to do it. Sometimes I have to connect a little deeper, sometimes that negotiation gets going. It takes a little bit longer, but there's no wasting days. You know, my son Isaac will turn 16 in March. That's almost twice. Who made me cry? It's almost twice the amount of time that my mother ever had with me. You know my daughter's 13 years old. I mean, I think about these things that for me there's no getting time back. I better take advantage of the time that I'm given. And that's one of the things that I do my very best every day. To really connect people to is their perspective and what drives them and what their burn is, because for everybody it's different, so that they fight to be the best in their lives, one day at a time.

Speaker 3: 12:20

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Speaker 1: 13:02

Tell me more about the burn.

Speaker 2: 13:04

Yeah, so the burn is different for everybody. So for me that burn comes from pain and challenge. And so a lot of times people say, oh my why and my purpose is my family, and I think that's wonderful. So we can use that as an example. It's my family, or to provide, or to be an example for my kids. So that's your why I'm going to fight to be my best.

Speaker 2: 13:23

But unless you understand what causes you to not waste that day, to fight when you don't want to, that's that underlying burn. And so it either comes from pain, which provides perspective, like mine does, first many individuals. They may say, well, my parents made great sacrifice and because of their sacrifice I will not waste a day. Or maybe there's little eyes that are watching you in your home every day and you're making sacrifice for them, and when you think about being that example for them, that is that extra for you. And so that burn comes from many different ways, many different forms. Everybody has it, but there has to be a willingness to dig down deep, find it and then connect to it every day.

Speaker 1: 14:08

I think it has to do also with knowing that you are living out the authentic and highest purpose that God has put you on this planet for for your. The intention for your soul. That's what I believe that you are carrying out that highest, truest intention God has for you, for your soul.

Speaker 2: 14:45

And I believe that wholeheartedly and deep into my soul. One of our mutual friends, the Gordon's, Catherine and John Gordon just amazing human beings. John Gordon led me to Christ in 2008. And one of the daily verses that I read every single day since he led me to Christ literally in February of 2008,. I was born Jewish, got bar mitzvah, so you hang with me, I'm duly.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Say with John.

Speaker 2: 15:09

You'll be okay, exactly, say, with John, but I read James 1 12. Yes, I think so too, but I do believe that God has given you the power to do what you want to do. And I believe that God has given you the power to do what you want to do.

Speaker 1: 15:37

They commit it yes, I think so too, but I do believe that, as Rumi the philosopher, said, the wound is the place where the light enters you.

Speaker 2: 15:54

That's powerful. Tell me more about how you interpret that.

Speaker 1: 15:59

I just believe that out of our pain is was born our purpose.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Yes, it's similar to when people hear they say I'm so sorry that you went through this, and I always appreciate those sentiments. But I wouldn't be the man that I am today if I didn't go through the pain that I had to go through with my mom. I wouldn't be the man that I am today if I had to go through the pain that I went through with my father and all of those wounds. And they have provided amazing strength and I can only hope and pray that that provides a strong example for my kids to always keep fighting when the world tells you that you're not good enough, or somebody at school tells you you're not good enough, or the media tells you that the opportunity is not right for you, or politics tells you whatever politics is trying to tell us these days. I'm a big believer in that.

Speaker 1: 16:48

So tell me more about your father.

Speaker 2: 16:51

Well, nothing. My greatest joy as a father me as a father would be for my children to have all the success, whatever success looks like to them, and be happy and be loved and be amazing parents and amazing human beings and just be wildly successful. That's what I've always thought fatherhood parenting is supposed to be. And I, unfortunately and I know it's probably the same for many of your listeners I grew up in a house where nothing was ever good enough. I was always challenged. It was just, it was never enough. It was. It was the wounds. It was being called names, it was being beaten with words which, as I shared, I would have rather it been fists, because the bruises would have gone away. But the words and the wounds have been with me forever and just, nothing was ever good enough for my father. You know it was.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Hey, is that a new watch that you have? Or there's, are those new glasses? Why is your house fully furnished? I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, isn't your house supposed to be fully furnished? Like, wouldn't you want your child to marry an amazing woman to where they have this great life together and they can afford to fully furnish their house without asking you for money to furnish the house, like, isn't that the goal? To raise kids that are successful and can make their own way? And that wasn't it.

Speaker 2: 18:19

And one thing I'd love to hear through your experience, if you've ever found it maybe other people listening have struggled with it. I've never understood, rebecca, what? Why would he not want me to have a furnished house? I always believe, like that his greatest day would have been the phone call I would have made to say dad, we bought this house and I'm out of money. I need a kitchen table. Will you help me? I need plates and forks, like, will you help me? And I've just, I've never understood that, rebecca, why he wanted that control, why he wanted that power, why he wanted that command over my life because narcissists experience a form of brain damage that is, trauma during their childhood.

Speaker 1: 19:08

This is something that I learned during my research when I was writing my book that I was. I always say tell people when I'm speaking now that when I come to this part of my talk, you need to hang onto your hat, because this is absolutely going to blow your mind and change your life. When you learn this because it did mine and that is that when we as humans deal with and I'm assuming that he probably had a traumatic childhood as well, because that's what happens to us in childhood as humans when we experience stress, our bodies go into a stress response called fight or flight, and what happens is that our bodies then emit neurotransmitters called adrenaline, cortisol, that sort of thing, among others, but it's the adrenaline and cortisol that causes damage to the limbic system part of the brain, and the limbic system part of the brain is responsible for emotions, and when that happens continuously in childhood, there can actually be a lag in development between the prefrontal cortex part of the brain, which is responsible for thinking and judgment, and the emotional center part of the brain, which is the limbic system part of the brain, which then experiences a rested development. And so what happens with narcissists is then, as they grow up and they become adults while they can function normally and even pretty well and become charming and responsible, and all of that as adults in all of the rest of their lives there is this lag in development. They're really actually five year olds or eight year olds, or whatever it is emotionally, and they also have a part of their brain that causes them to have something called splitting, which means that they have these hair triggers. So if something causes them to feel triggered in some way that they will. They will immediately go into this rage. They immediately go into from black to white. You're either for them or against them. You're either my friend or my enemy.

Speaker 1: 21:49

And when that happens, that limbic system takes over and they are no longer. That thinking part of the brain is no longer in control. It's the limbic system that's now back in control. It's like a two year old having a tantrum. It's like now this part is in control and it's. They don't even realize what's going on and it can cause narcissistic rage. Or they can just be angry, or they can just be whatever, or they can just be jealous. They can just be, but that part is now in control and it causes narcissistic blindness. It can cause whatever, but that part is now in control and when that happens, they actually don't even necessarily remember what they did or said during that period of time and they will take themselves down, to take you down.

Speaker 1: 22:48

That's the part that's really scary and you cannot be communicating with them in a reasonable way during that period of time. I mean you certainly can't negotiate with them during that period of time. I mean you can't litigate with them reasonably normally. That's the difficulty and that's the thing that 99% of the population does not understand. And because we all walk around assuming that people are reasonable, we make the assumption that people are reasonable, but it's literally a damaged part of their brain. It's like cortisol got in there and damaged that part of their brain and so when that trigger happens, it could be an eye roll, it could be a perceived body language, it could be a perceived tone of voice, anything that triggers that. Somebody slided them in some way. Then that triggers that and then the limbic system takes over and that's in control and then they don't even necessarily remember what took place during that period of time.

Speaker 2: 24:04

You, literally just you, described my childhood.

Speaker 1: 24:07

Yes, and so that's why you cannot take it personally. You cannot take it personally, and so what I help people with is, first of all, that part of it. Second of all, how to communicate with them, how to deal with them, how to negotiate with them. Really, scripts I give people email templates, all everything that they need. There's a reason I have 50 million views on my YouTube channel in the last four years. There's a reason that I've sold thousands and thousands of my programs. It works. What I teach works.

Speaker 2: 24:50

But the very first thing-, rebecca, I needed I needed slay the bully when I was 13, 14, 15 years old.

Speaker 1: 24:55

Yes, the very first thing I want you to know is that you cannot take this personally. And it's literally like you got to think of it as like autism, or you got to think of it as like diabetes or whatever it is, but you cannot take this personally.

Speaker 2: 25:17

I know you're saying those words to me. If I can, if I can do something for your listeners, because I know your listeners and the reason why you have over 50 million views and you've sold so many books and you're helping people every single day with the amazing work that you're doing. I know you're saying those words to me. My father's gone. I want to just take a moment for your listeners and say I hope you're listening to those words for you, you see, because I really didn't slay the bully until the day before my father died.

Speaker 2: 25:49

Rebecca, I fed my father breakfast when he was on his deathbed. On a Friday morning I flew out to go to meet the Kansas State Wildcats, where I've been the performance coach with their head coach for the last nine. I've been with that head coach for nine years and I fly out to be with the team and it was the first quarter of the game the next day. I didn't realize it was going to be that fast. My dad ends up passing away in the first quarter. My entire life all I ever wanted to hear was my father say I'm proud of him. It's all I ever wanted. A year before I fed him that breakfast, I went into the hospital room with him, cleared my mind, told him everything I needed to say, and he said, dad, all I've ever wanted to do is make you proud. And, rebecca, I thought it was going to be this big moment where he was going to look at me and say I am proud of you, ben and Rebecca. He said nothing. So I, literally I walk out and I remember I called my wife, I call Amy and I'm just like what is wrong with him, like I here was this, like we're saying all the final things that need to be said. He makes it another year. Well, that day, when I fed him breakfast, he looked at me in between bites of oatmeal and a sip of coffee and he said Ben, I'm very proud of you. And I walked out of the hospital room that day, rebecca, and it was the strangest feeling.

Speaker 2: 27:05

I'd waited to hear it all those years and I walked out and I called Amy again and this time I told her I actually didn't need to hear it and I gave my dad my power for so long and I just I'm now taking the advice you gave me that I wish I had a long time ago, and I want your listeners, who I know they listened to you and I hear, but for somebody who just hasn't taken the advice you just gave, please listen, because I wish I would have slayed that bully 10 years earlier. I wish I would have slayed that bully and my father 20 years earlier. I wish I would have slayed him 30 years earlier. I wish I would have known that and I didn't have the strength.

Speaker 2: 27:42

Rebecca and I'm fine, a big, strong guy that looks like he could play in the NFL. I keep in shape in order to work with the guys that I work with, but I'm a broken soul too. There's things that I work on and I'm here to tell you I didn't have the strength, I didn't have the power. I gave him my power and I don't want that to happen to any of you. So that's a double message. I pass Rebecca's message to me on to you, and I hope many of you listen to it, because I think it needs to be heard.

Speaker 1: 28:11

Absolutely, and it's. You know. We all have our own versions of that. I mean, you know, my mom was an alcoholic when I was growing up as well, and I've had my own struggles. I was bullied as a kid myself. You know, we've all had our own struggles. We've all had them. Nobody gets out of this life with a free pass. We just don't. Nobody does. That's part of life. You know, I remember hearing Wayne Dyer talking about his speeches and he just decided he wasn't going to hustle for his worthiness anymore.

Speaker 1: 28:52

He said what am I going to do? Chase every person home after he did a speech and try to convince them that he did a good job If they didn't like it. I mean, what are you going to do? You're not going to do that. You got to do it for yourself.

Speaker 1: 29:10

It's really hard to do that sometimes, right? But I always joke that I can never leave my thoughts unsupervised, right, because I got to. You know that input has to be good all the time. You've got to have that discipline to do it, and that's one of the things that you talk about a lot. Having that discipline showing up, having that mental training. That is what is so, so important. Making sure that you decide.

Speaker 1: 29:41

I mean, I talk about the power of a decision and the word decide the root of the word decide is side to kill, to cut off. There cannot be any other choice. You can't say, well, maybe I'll try. Yeah, no, you can't do that, and that's one of the things that you talk about too. I really want to get to the powerful things that you do. It to motivate people, because I love that. We started off with this, because I think it's really important that we talked about the difficulties that you've had because you didn't get a free pass and you use that to create the standard and the four P's at all. All of the things that you do. You have now to get people to show up as the best versions of themselves, to coach teams like Alabama.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Oh, you know, they want a few things, right, I mean you know it's interesting that you say this because you know I have the opportunity to meet so many amazing individuals like yourself who have taken on this work and help people understand. I mean literally hearing every word that you said. You literally were describing my father. I mean, if everybody could see the pictures that were going through my head being yelled at on the couch to being yelled at in the parking lot after a basketball game when I had my own car, like where you were taking me, it was amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:10

But here's one thing I've always said and I know I say, gosh, I wish I would have had the book 30 years ago, 20 years ago, to kind of slay the bully. But maybe I wasn't supposed to, maybe I was supposed to take all that pain so that I could provide strength for others to work through theirs. And so a lot of times I look at my story and people say, gosh, wouldn't you want to have changed that? But that's part of where my discipline comes from. It was this double edged sword, that nothing was ever good enough for my father. And I was really blessed, rebecca, because I had coaches and mentors and individuals that I would seek their love and I would seek their support because I wasn't getting it at home, and so I was blessed to have this balance of both to where you get verbally beaten, to where you want to be your best, but then you get this love and support to realize I'm just going to take the positive side of fighting to be the best me, and so I had to get all the wounds in order to be able to find the strength, and so I don't think I would change any of it.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Even losing my mom, I wish I could have just one more hug and one more kiss, but my mother and it's a whole nother episode that we could do my mother had to pass so that other people could live. We recently did an episode on our show where I met somebody who's receiving chemotherapy and living with amyloidosis, and in 2008, when I spoke at the Boston Medical Center, my mother's old doctor said her case of amyloidosis was one of the ones they studied to find out that chemotherapy allows people to live. So my mother had to die so that people could live, and so I think sometimes people want the pain to go away, but that's why a lot of times I say you have to lean into that pain, you have to allow that pain to create your standards, to create your best life, to create your disciplines, because the reality is you can't change it. I can't go back and change any of it. It is what it is. I might as well show up and be my best, one day at a time.

Speaker 1: 33:04

Absolutely and, as I said, your pain is what turned into your purpose and had you not gone through that, you wouldn't be changing lives, you wouldn't be making the impact that you are.

Speaker 2: 33:22

Well, I appreciate your words when you say that.

Speaker 1: 33:25

Yeah, so I really want to get to some of the things that you use to motivate people, some of the powerful tools that you use to teach people. So if you could give us some pointers on the standard, because I think that it's really easy to remember and it's easy to apply some of your tips.

Speaker 2: 33:55

So I think one of the things in and I think the beauty of your work as long as you've been doing it, the success that you've had where you've been featured on Forbes and Ed Milet show and Dr Drew I mean you're at the highest level of expert and so I think it's just amazing the work that you've done. And so when you have that voice to speak with, there's just a different listening because it comes with substance that actually changed somebody's life and I've been blessed I feel like you probably feel the same way, whether it be in a courtroom or whether it be through now, your research that you're just exposed to so many ways to learn, and I just feel blessed that I keep having these amazing relationships with people who make me better. But it gives you this amazing research. And so I look back after writing a handful of books and I said I think I need to write a book about the standard, because you turn on an interview after somebody wins a championship that oh, the standard, the standard. But like nobody broke down, like what does that mean? And so I wrote the book the standard to help people break down and understand the importance of having standards in your life. So it's not just something that you say I have standards. It's a manner in which you live your life. You scrutinize your behaviors, you reverse engineer your past success and say what made me successful. And then my standards are the things that I can replicate, repeat and drive discipline to, to not only continue to have that success again, but to have continual peak performance and drive even higher levels of success, because you don't get seduced by success when you have it. So we broke down what the standard is and what the standard is, and in the book and on page 24 in the book, one principle that people have loved and you mentioned it is what I call the four Ps of the standard. And the four Ps of the standard are as follows it's the problem, the planning, the performance and the payoff. So I'm a big believer. I'm one of those coaches who I cut it to you straight the pain and challenge I've been through. I don't want to sugarcoat it, act like we're going to ride around on unicorns and slide down rainbows after our time together today. Like it's real life.

Speaker 2: 36:08

You're either in the middle of a problem right now. You're either just coming out of a problem, you're about to walk into a problem, or you're about to create what oftentimes is the biggest problem we create, which is your winning. And a lot of people say how is my winning a problem? Because most people, when they win, they stop doing what caused them to win, which actually creates the biggest problem you can have. And then you question why did I stop having success?

Speaker 2: 36:34

So I believe, every day, if you take two minutes to go through these four Ps, then you will have the opportunity to identify that problem. And once you so, for those of you that are winning at a high level right now, walk me through this. Okay, so you're winning right now you just had the best month ever, the best January you ever could have had. That might be a problem. So how do we offset the problem? You wake up and you say I've been winning at such a high level, what do I need to do today to keep winning? And winning is not the result, winning is the behavior. And then the byproduct of great behavior and discipline is the result. So then you plan out if I do these three things one, two and three I will keep them all men and going and I'll win. So that's the planning piece. Then the third P is the performance. Very simple, rebecca Just do what you say you're going to do.

Speaker 2: 37:25

If you know what you need to do and you do it, that's the performance piece and that's what most people miss. They know what they need to do and for some reason they choose to not do it. Well, but January was so big. I don't want to go through the challenge of university. I don't want to step into harm's way. I don't want to have negativity and rejection. I just today, I'm just not going to do it.

Speaker 2: 37:46

And if you forget the performance piece, you're really creating a problem there. And so you follow through with the action, do what you say you're going to do and then you get a payoff. And I always share in business and in sports. When you get the payoff, don't stop, don't be seduced by success. Recognize that the payoff is confirmation that the process is working. The payoff is confirmations that your standards are causing you to show up and win it in your life and you want to win more. So it's simple Every day, just keep this cycle going and wake up and connect to those four Ps the problem, the planning, the performance and the payoff and it'll drive continued success and winning.

Speaker 1: 38:28

You know, what I love about it is that I think that the way that people win and I say this all the time is that they have to have a context, and most people I think 90%, and I'm just throwing a statistic out there they don't have a context. They don't have a future context from which they operate. I think most people are just dealing with the fires of the day, and so, therefore, they're operating from a past context all the time instead of having a future context. That's pulling them, that they're being pulled toward. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 39:20

It does. And whenever people struggle with that, you know you could almost refer to it as vision or an unclear path of where I want to go. I've asked this question for years. I love asking people who say I don't know what I want, I don't know where I want to go. It's just unclear, it's foggy.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Grab your future and bring it to today. Grab your future and bring it to today, and somebody that's going to get people talking. Nobody's going to say I want absolutely nothing for my future. And you know the easy thing I can't see anything. It's cloudy, but just encourage people. Grab your future and bring it to today.

Speaker 2: 39:52

But tell me one thing that you would want. Oh, I would love to be an amazing mother, I would love to own my own company, I would love to do X, I'd love to do Y, I'd love to do Z, and then just get people to talk. And I think the more that you ask people questions and engage them and get them to talk and speak and become visual and share what they want, then it's easier to then drive an understanding to what it takes for them to achieve those things, because all success happens one day at a time. You know you don't play all four quarters of a football game. In the first quarter, you play one play at a time, for every play, in order to complete 60 minutes of playing, and sometimes you go into overtime, but you don't play the whole game in the first quarter, and in life you don't get to have the entire year in one day. You get it one day at a time, and so I always encourage people let's get as clear as we can, or sometimes our job is to help people bring them to that clarity, to then reverse engineer the behaviors that will cause them to win every day.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Right, and this is why I'm actually glad that we decided to do our swap here like this, because for me, with my sleigh, with my sleigh strategy, the very first part of sleigh is S strategy, and in order to win, you have to have a strategy, and the first part of strategy is creating that vision, creating that, where is it that I'm going? And you don't have to have this as a formal negotiation. This is actually part of life as well. Where am I going? What am I doing?

Speaker 1: 41:27

So many times, when you're dealing with a narcissist or a high conflict personality, all you can do a lot of times is feel like hi, this person's in my face, like as this 13 year old kid, right, this person's in my face, this guy's in my face all the time. So I'm in defensive mode. All the time. You're not thinking about what do I want for myself. All I can think about is surviving, and that's what happens with most people. And so when they come to me which you know I don't do a lot of one-on-one coaching, but even in my certification program now, because I certify coaches I tell them when you're coaching people get them to tell you what is it that they want from their life.

Speaker 1: 42:22

Where is it they want to go? Because a lot of times they don't know. Get them to visualize it, then, the more specific that they can be then it now they're being drawn toward that future. The more specific they can be, the better it is. Well, where do I want to be a year from now? Well, I want to live in this house and I want to be by the ocean, and I want to be divorced, or I want to have a better boss, or I want to have started a business, and this is what I want it to look like, and I want to be free from this person. Okay, great, let's get you there. How are we going to get there?

Speaker 2: 43:07

What I love about that is you're helping people bring clarity to what they want, which then, from a coaching perspective, allows you to say okay, what do we need to change in your environment today? What do we need to change in your behaviors today? What are the things that you've actually put in your way, in your environment, that are keeping you from having those things you say that you want, because everybody would say I want to live to the standard, but you can't say it. You got to do it. So if there's something in your environment that's keeping you from doing it, you got to clear that obstacle out of the way. Exactly and that's what I love about your process is that it causes people to find that clarity, to almost have that empowerment to say I'm going to get those obstacles out of my way because I know where I'm going.

Speaker 1: 43:47

Exactly, but let's figure out where you were going first, because it's like a GPS. You're not going to just get in your car and say let's just drive and hope you get there.

Speaker 3: 43:59

Right.

Speaker 1: 43:59

So you got to get in your car and plug it into the GPS and then go and then-.

Speaker 2: 44:06

So take us to the L, take us to the L.

Speaker 1: 44:08

Yes. Well, once you get in your car, then you know you don't hope that you're going to get from LA to San Diego. You know you're going to go from LA to San Diego. Once the GPS is plugged in, you don't go. Oh my gosh, I think I might end up in San Francisco. I might end up dead on the side of the road. You don't think that. You believe you're going to go. You believe with all your heart you're going to get there. You know you're going to get there. I mean, you pack your suitcase, you start imagining yourself there, you start planning your activities. Once you're going to get there, you meet up. You know you're going to meet up with friends. You start thinking about what you're going to wear. That's where your mind starts going and that's how you start manifesting that.

Speaker 3: 44:55

Right.

Speaker 1: 44:57

And then you got to start taking the steps. You got to start executing. Execution is key. If you don't start actually doing, then you know you're not gonna get there right. So making actual plan steps than doing. Then the next thing is leverage creating that leverage. So the leverage is always going to be when you're dealing with a narcissist, looking at narcissistic supply.

Speaker 1: 45:31

All narcissists are driven by narcissistic supply. What is it that feeds their ego? So all narcissists feel totally and completely empty inside. They are completely shame-based individuals. They feel the most pain, the most shame of all people. They're completely fear-based individuals. They are the most scarcity-based individuals. So all of their feeling of value has to come from what we call narcissistic supply.

Speaker 1: 46:04

But there's two forms of narcissistic supply. It's either image, image-based, which is going to be anything related to image. So it could be big houses, money, cars, good job, the new girlfriend, whatever is related to image, and it could be ill-gotten or not, they don't really care, but it has to do with image. So diamond-level supply. They will protect and defend this at any cost, even at the cost of their children. They don't care.

Speaker 1: 46:39

The second thing is what I call co-level supply, which is pushing other people down to make themselves feel good. So that's the degrading, the debasing, the passive-aggressive behavior, but it could also be victim-based. It could also be you know, poor me guilt-tripping, that sort of thing as well, but it's all based around feeding this ego. Now how do you create leverage? You create leverage by the retina, source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around. The myth is that narcissists just want to win. That's the myth. Everybody thinks narcissists just want to win. That's the problem. Narcissists do want to win, but they also want to continue to lead you around, make you miserable and keep you on their string, and that's why they continuously move goal posts in negotiations, and that's why which is what I felt with my dad no matter what I would do, it was always, nothing was ever good enough, and it was just this constant.

Speaker 2: 47:57

I mean I would walk in to be with him and it was like he knew he could control me, he knew that he had the power, he knew what to say. I mean it was just. I mean it was the highest level of manipulation, when I look back on it, that I ever could have experienced. And now I look and I say God like, how did I give him that power?

Speaker 1: 48:14

They have a sadistic streak right Because they get off. They literally get off on making you squirms, seeing you sweat. They enjoy that, they get a high on that. And so the trick in building leverage is threatening a source of supply that potentially exposes that image. And so if you're negotiating with them, like because you have to in some way whether it's a divorce, a business partnership, maybe it's a boss or whatever it is then you have to look at how can you threaten that source of supply, whether it's coming up with summaries of lies and inconsistent statements, or maybe it's threatening to depose a potential witness or whatever, it is something that's going to have them go. Oh my gosh, I don't want that to happen. So, therefore, I'm going to need to let go of the source of supply which is manipulating you so that I have to protect me this image, and then that's the leverage, that's how. And then you have to cut that off and then not deal with them again. Now, if it's a family member, obviously that's a whole different conversation. There may have to be some kind of very specific types of boundaries that you are going to control and define going forward. That's a different story. That's leverage.

Speaker 1: 49:56

A is anticipate, anticipate what they're going to do, be two steps ahead of them. Each type of narcissist covert, passive, aggressive they're one type, grandiose, a different type. Malignant, different type. They all act differently in negotiations. You have to be ahead of that. If you know what type you're dealing with, you can anticipate that, you can be prepared for that. For example, the grandiose narcissist more likely to file false pleadings, more likely to ignore court orders. The covert, passive, aggressive narcissist more likely to line up flying monkeys and act like they are caring about people.

Speaker 1: 50:40

That's how they smear people. So they might smear in terms of care. For example, they might say oh, I am just so worried about Suzy and her job performance lately. I'm just, you know she's just falling down on the job a lot and I'm just I'm only mentioning this because I'm just worried about her. You know she hasn't been up to her usual standards. You know she's been making a lot of mistakes at work. You know she might say something like that to other people and she probably hasn't made any mistakes. Or somebody might, she might say something like oh, I'm worried about Johnny and his drinking. You know, I'm just concerned about him around the children, you know, and probably no trouble with drinking whatsoever, but they say it like in terms of care, like they're such a good person and that's how they smear people, that sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 51:50

You know they're just more passive, aggressive. They show up like they're such good people that's a covert Then anticipate that they're gonna try to bait you, they're gonna try to trigger you. They're going to try to you know, go for exactly the types of things that they know are important to you, if they know.

Speaker 2: 52:12

So let me, let me cause this like plays right into this. So imagine me 15 years old. I'm sitting on the couch and this is the baiting that you're talking about. So for somebody who's dealing with this, this might be helpful for you to walk through what I maybe should have done, or maybe I handled it the right way. But it got to the point where he would try to bait me. I would engage and then I realized after a while, like I was giving him what he wanted. So then it got to the point where, when I was about 15 years old, he would come home from a day at work I'm upstairs doing my homework, whatever I'm doing he'd scream and yell, get down here. And I'm like, oh gosh, here we go again. And I would just sit on the couch and he would scream and yell. I mean, just bury me with just this negative, awful, horrible, painful, just screaming, and I would just sit there like this. And it got to the point I would just, would say nothing.

Speaker 2: 53:04

And then he would say what does that look on your face? Why are you smirking at me? It was like it was almost like he was trying to get it out of me and I would just sit and it drove him crazy because I wouldn't give him what he wanted. And then it would just make him angry and then the rage would just go to the next level and then finally, I would just say I'm not doing anything, I'm just sitting here, and then he would really get set off and I just I never knew how to handle it in that moment, so I thought just being quiet and not doing anything was the way to do it. I wish I would have known how to negotiate through it better, rather than just sitting there.

Speaker 1: 53:39

Right? Well, I tell people, you always have a right to be respected. You always have a right to be respected. And so, step one don't run. Step two make a U-turn. Step three break free.

Speaker 1: 53:54

And so, having now the information that I gave you earlier about how their brain works and that sort of thing, the very first step is create a boundary, and that very first boundary is you have a right to be respected. And so just start looking at them as if they're having a two year old having a tantrum on the floor and just, yeah, just start observing their behavior to them. Oh, I can see that you are upset. I can see that you are angry. We can have this discussion when you are calm. Keep their behavior over there. It has nothing to do with you. I tell people to put an invisible, teflon, invisible boundary down around them and just start to observe their behavior to them, because it has nothing to do with you. So I just say, like, be like Superman with the bullets off of you or Wonder Woman with the bullets off of your wrist, and just start observing. Don't absorb observe don't absorb.

Speaker 1: 55:06

Just, we can have this discussion later. I can see that you are angry, I can see that you are upset, you know. Or sometimes I say you can react with curiosity instead of anger. Oh, that's interesting. Why would you say that? Oh, that's interesting. Why would you think that you just observe, don't absorb, or react with curiosity instead of anger?

Speaker 1: 55:33

Yeah, this thing I often say is never jade, which I would say I love jade because I'm half Chinese, so I love jade. But I say never jade, never justify, argue, defend or explain. Just I always say like, pretend, like you're reporting the news, just the facts. So just the facts. Because the more you try to justify, the more you try to defend, the more you try to explain, the more you try to argue, then you're giving them supply. You're actually down in the mud with them. You're never going to get them to acknowledge you. You're never going to get them to see your side. You're never going to convince them of anything. That is a circular conversation that is going nowhere, literally going nowhere. So where do you think you're going with that? You're never gonna get them to go. Oh, you know, you're right. You've convinced me that conversation's never gonna happen. So where do you think you're going with that? Just never jade. Just start observing their behavior to them. Observe, don't absorb.

Speaker 2: 56:51

All right, so I know we'll be hitting our finish line here shortly, so what is the why?

Speaker 1: 56:57

Yes. So the why is you at your mindset. So 100% of your mindset of winning is your mindset. So if you don't believe you can win, nobody can help you. I tell people that all the time you could have whoever you wanna pick as your personal coach or your personal attorney, whoever you want as your dream team, could show up and be your personal whoever. If you don't believe that you can win, or that you're worthy or you're whatever, nobody can help you. Okay, I swear to you that this is the truth. You have to believe it. You have to believe it first. Just start visualizing it, start saying it, start knowing it, start being it and every being of your body and it will happen.

Speaker 1: 57:52

Football teams do not win with a good defense. They win with good offense. You have to know that. You have to be on the offense. That's another thing. You have to be offensive. Stop thinking about what's going on on the other side. You know they're doing this, they're doing that, they're doing this, they're doing that. Work on your side of the equation. You know. I know so many times as a trial lawyer and I've done thousands of trials I'm telling you right now I've won a lot of trials and I've won a lot of negotiations. Every single time, a lawyer would show up in the courtroom and their entire case was how bad we were. They lost. You have to have a good offense too, so just focus on your side. Yeah, you gotta know what the other side is gonna argue. You gotta be ready for that all of that, of course, too, but know what your position is going to be and just focus on your authentic power, your authentic power.

Speaker 1: 59:01

One of my favorite stories in the world is the Wizard of Oz, because Glinda the Good Witch she had authentic power from the beginning. And if you remember, at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz, when the wicked witch came flying around her, she flicked her away and said go away, you have no power here. That's where you're going. Go away, you have no power here Because that's where you stand. If you have authentic, true power, the narcissist will be like a nat flying around with you, because you'll stand in your true power, just like we talked about at the beginning of this podcast, when you know who you are and you are living out God's true purpose, for who you are, as a soul, as a being, for God's truest and highest intention, for your soul living at your highest purpose on this planet. Nobody can touch you. Nobody can touch you.

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

This has been so special for me. I'm so glad that we called the audible in the middle. I just hope everybody listening. This goes without saying. I was so excited because of even in some of your videos, some of your videos, when you guys watch, they're amazing. Like you don't even say anything, it's just you pointing fingers to. It's amazing how you do things and I love it. But there's this calmness and hearing you speak, I can see you in the courtroom and there's a lot of attorneys who sit behind desks and never get into an actual courtroom and you are one of the top. You're in the top 1% of attorneys walking the face of the earth. It's amazing what you've done, which now has transformed to helping so many people over 50 million views, everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

We're gonna make this so easy. We've got a free giveaway for you that we're gonna put in our show notes. We have all of the access to make sure you can get your copies of Slay the Bully. Rebecca, you are incredible. I look forward to the opportunity With so many friends. We're probably gonna be sharing the same stage at events, whatever it might be.

Speaker 1: 1:01:11

I cannot wait, but I'm just so grateful to spend this time You've impacted me.

Speaker 2: 1:01:17

I can't wait to dive even further into ways that I can learn more, and I appreciate how you brought out in me some of my pain, even though it's my father's been passed. That hopefully is able to help your listeners and the listeners of the burn.

Speaker 1: 1:01:36

Yes, well, thank you, Thank you for imparting your wisdom. As I said, you literally coached some of the top performers on the planet, and so I know how lucky and blessed we are to have you here and coaching our listeners as well, so I'm so grateful that we did it this way as well. I know that this is going to help so many people, and I'm really. I can't wait to meet you in person, because I just know what a special human being you are. So thank you, thank you. Thank you, ben Newman, for this.

Speaker 2: 1:02:19

Well, thank you, Rebecca, and for each and every single one of you listening. We hope that our ability to call the audible and bring something that I don't think has ever been done I've never seen it happen where we say, forget the swap, we're just going to roll that it was an amazing experience and you were able to learn something different for you and empowerment for you. So I appreciate every single one of you that listens to the burn. I'm going to turn it back over to Rebecca. Thank you again for being part of our show and I'm going to let you close it up for us.

Speaker 1: 1:02:47

Yes, well, thank you, Ben. This was, I think, one of the most special episodes we've ever done. I really hope that all of you can go back and re-listen to so many of the nuggets that we shared in this and really take some notes and really use this to help improve your life, especially now at the beginning of this year, especially what we talked about being your future self and really applying this and really applying the I am and really just deciding today that it can be different. It's never too late to make a change, to make a choice and be who you want to be. It's never the end of the story. Don't ever give your power away to anybody else ever, right? So today's a great day to start negotiating your best life, and I will see you in the next episode. Bye.